Javier
Javier Card was incarcerated at Green Haven Correctional Facility at the time this oral history was recorded. On April 9, 2021, Javier was granted parole at his first appearance before the Parole Board. He was transferred to ICE detention and deported to Panama, where he reunited with his mother and the rest of his family for the first time in over 35 years.
Portrait to the left: "Hope in Every Circumstance" by Elvis Martin.
Note: these interviews have been lightly edited for readability.
Interviewer 0:16
Could you tell me your full name, today's date, and your location?
Javier Giovanni Card (Javier) 0:26
Okay, so my name is Javier Giovanni Card. Today is November the fifth, 2020. I am in Green Haven Correctional Facility in New York State, a maximum-security prison in New York State.
Interviewer 0:39
Awesome. Thank you. So, can you tell us how you came to this project, or came to know the Immigrant Defense Project?
Javier 0:49
Okay. So I came into this project by way of an attorney with the Immigrant Defense Project by the name of Jane Shim. I've been working closely with her on some immigration issues, we try to create some change with, you know, people getting deported a little sooner than their projected date. Also working on different issues, I will basically fall under the banner of criminal justice reform. And then she actually asked would I be interested in being involved with this, and of course- not only because I will support anything that she does, but I support anything that is geared towards bringing awareness of issues dealing with criminal justice.
Interviewer 1:39
Great, and I'm excited that I can get to work with you on that stuff—
Javier 1:47
Yeah.
Interviewer 1:48
So, I'm going to ask you some questions about moving to the United States. So what are some of your first memories of moving to this country?
Javier 2:01
Can you repeat? What are some of my first- what was that you said?
Interviewer 2:04
What are some of your first memories of moving to this country?
Javier 2:11
So one of my first memories of moving to this country. Let me make sure that I understand the question correctly, you’re saying when I first arrived here, or when I was in Panama, what was my thoughts about why or what motivated me to come up here? Or, once I got here, what was my background?
Interviewer 2:28
Both. So, once you got here what do you remember? First impressions or things that happened. And then also, yeah, that would be interesting—
Javier 2:41
So even if it’s bad, we doing this? Because...
Interviewer 2:43
Oh, we’re doing this, yeah. Whatever you want to share, and—
Javier 2:48
A lot of it is bad. Alright, so let’s—alright.
Interviewer 2:50
And also, it'd be interesting to hear what you thought about the United States before you...like what the idea was—the idea or images in your mind. And then once you came here, what it was like.
Javier 3:07
Oh my god [laughs], alright you asked for it so, you already know how I am. So, initially, prior to me coming to the United States this time, I came a few times with my mother as a child on some on vacation type trips. My memories of that were that, you know, the United States is one of the best places on Earth. Most countries outside of the US kind of look to the US that way. We look at it from this perspective, like if you go to the US all your problems are gonna be solved, and anybody that you left back in your country you’re going to be able to help them. And, you know, this big thing about the American dream.
Now this time when I came in 1986, at the age of 21, I was getting in trouble in my country. I was involved in a lot of, you know, criminal activity. As a kid I was a very good student. I was honor roll, and I was involved in a lot of activities. You know like, playing soccer, karate school, boy scouts, all that stuff. But I still lived in what would be considered, you know, low-income community and it was a lot of stuff going on. I was attracted, unfortunately attracted by a lot of that stuff.
So by time I turned 21, I was so entrenched into that type of lifestyle that I came up here. Because I had friends up here that were some big time drug dealers. They were older than me and they would send pictures back to Panama with these big cars and homes, and you know all this material stuff. That was my concept of what America could provide, and I came up here for that, chasing that mirage. I came here in 1986 in July and went straight into that lifestyle, so I came here for material things thinking it was a solution to all my problems, and it turned out to be that the whole world is a ghetto, you know? And, the way people are struggling and, I guess I now realize that I wasted a lot of potential. There were so many opportunities for me here when I got here, but I chose to go on the opposite side of the road which is, you know, breaking the law.
Interviewer 5:35
Yeah, how old were you when you got here?
Javier 5:38
I was 21, I was about to turn 21.
Interviewer 5:42
Okay, got it. Do you have any memories from, you know, like specific memories from when you arrived here in the United States? A thing you saw, or things that happened that you remember?
Javier 6:01
So, I remember at the airport getting a cab and driving—I was in Canada first for like two months, I got stuck in Canada. And I met someone over there, this guy from Pakistan named Albert, and I stayed with him for a couple of months and went across the border over Niagara Falls in the trunk of his car. But then, when I got over there they took me to Upstate Buffalo and flew to LaGuardia. And I called my friend and they said “write down this address, get in a cab, come to Brooklyn”. And when I got in the cab, I remember seeing all these buildings and all this stuff. And I was just fascinated. It was the same type of reaction I had when I first landed in Canada, and everything looked so different and modern. Not to say that in Panama it wasn’t a city with big buildings and stuff, but I was fascinated with that. And then when I finally got to my destination in Brooklyn, my friends came and picked me up, and they came with all these cars, and everything was just so fast, you know? They took me to their house and then changed clothes, took a shower, and then to the club. And just, it was speed lightning. Everything was going fast, real fast. I had a hard time processing everything that night, that first night. Yeah, that was a lot of memories.
Interviewer 7:32
Right. So, you touched on this a little bit, that some of the reasons that you came to the US. Were there, you know separately, were there reasons that you left Panama?
Javier 7:53
Yeah, I was getting in a lot of trouble down there. And, in Panama the government has green light to shoot you for committing crimes, even if you’re unarmed. It's not the type of system, like up here for example, where an unarmed person gets shot by the police, you know, people march, and this big thing going on. Down there it was like an unofficial rule that police officers had green light to shoot you if they catch you when committing a crime. I got shot several times as a kid. They had a rule, if you were known to be a juvenile, they were allowed to shoot you below the waist if they caught you committing a crime. But once you turn 18 they will come around sometimes and say “hey, you turned 18, you just had a birthday. You know what’s up now, right?”, and they would shoot you in the back or shoot you in the head when they catch you. And, I think it got to that point where I said to myself, because I realized I wasn’t going to stop doing what I was doing, and I felt like I didn’t want to die that way. This might sound insane, so I chose to come up here to get into this thing up here, which is way more people, right? With the exception of the police it’s true, which we know is also similar. So, I left for that riches and material stuff, and because it was part of the law down there.
“I think there’s this thing about America, the way other countries view America, that everything is going to be better.”
Interviewer 9:23
By riches you mean like, you mean money like wealth?
Javier 9:30
Yeah. Money, power, respect. I want it all. I saw Scarface when I was in Panama and said, you know, I’m going up there. This is it. I want to do that shit, right? And I came up here. At first I was fascinated with these guys and these pictures down here with all the material stuff.
Interviewer 9:54
Yeah. So Scarface. Was there anything else that you saw that made it desirable?
Javier 10:05
It was in everything. You know, commercials, and brand of the clothing. Everything that came from America. When you live in these countries—and mind you, I’m not trying to paint a picture like I grew up in this poverty stricken part of the country, because I did not. I grew up, yeah it was a low-income, a modest-income neighborhood, but my mother was, is, the type of mother that I never needed for anything. So a lot of the things that I steal was because I needed to fill this, I don’t know, this void to just needing attention or be bad, because I’m an only child. So, this is not that type of conversation, but I think that—
Interviewer 10:46
This is any type of conversation that you want it to be, so.
Javier 10:51
Okay. I think there’s this thing about America, the way other countries view America, that everything is going to be better. That was part of the reason too, aside from what I mentioned to you earlier, that was part of it as well. That after it all the problems would go away, I’d get my mother a big house, I could do this, I could do that. My mother, she didn’t want no part from none of that, she didn’t want no part from no blood money. Because she always knew that I could be much more. She’s big on education, so she knew what I could do, and I just didn’t know my own potential.
Interviewer 11:31
So we're gonna move into some questions about—Well, let me ask you this. . . You said a lot about, coming here, and what it was like and what it was like back in Panama. How does that shape your sense of home? I guess, do one of those places evoke home to you more than the other? How has that taken shape over time?
Javier 12:21
You know it’s funny because, especially in New York. So New York is so diverse, it’s this melting pot of different cultures. And, it’s like, we leave our countries and then we congregate in these areas where most of the people from our countries of origin live at. So it’s like subcultures within the culture itself. Because I was around Panamanians it’s like, you know, the culture was so alive because I was with them every day, and I went to the restaurants, and the clubs, and the scene. But I was also exposed to other cultures. And I think it kind of started bringing awareness to me. For example, one of the things that stood out to me, in Panama, West Indian people have a very strong presence in Panama even though it’s a Central American country. And that's because of the history with the canal that West Indians were the ones that did the actual labor. But over the passing of time they stayed there and, you know, they became part of the culture. So, reggae and West Indian culture and stuff is ingrained in that thing. So a lot of the things that we share, I thought was kind of exclusive to Panamanian and West Indians. When I came up here and I started hanging out with West Indian dudes from out the Islands, I realized that we all shared some of the same things, because we all had the similar backgrounds, right? How our ancestors were, got sent from one place to another, and how the English had played a dominant role in shaping our culture, the things we say, and how we eat. So, I’ve given both other cultures I realized that the world was bigger than my little country and my little, you know…
Interviewer 14:08
So it sounds like where you came when you got here, it was with a lot of people from Panama, where you were living.
Javier 14:34
Yeah, I noticed that with different cultures here in the United States, especially in New York—a city, a large city—we have our own little areas, like Little Italy, Little Haiti, Little This, Little Cuba.
You know, we try to hold on to our roots and our culture, even though we’re in a foreign land. And one hand we’re adapting to the new soil, but on the other hand we’re holding on to these things.
Interviewer 14:47
Right, right.
Javier 14:49
So that was the thing for me.
Interviewer 14:54
Right. So I'm gonna switch gears a little bit and talk about punishment. And—
Javier 15:05
Ah, okay.
“So, now this concept of deportation is different for me now. Because now I’m going on 30 years in prison and I want to go home, so now I look at home, and it is a little anxiety now. ”
Interviewer 15:06
I'd love to hear what you think about, and hear more about based on your personal experiences, but specifically on deportation. Do you remember when you first understood, or thought about the possibility that you would be deported, or that you could be deported?
Javier 15:32
Yes. So I think, you know, once that person is convicted, whether it be federal or state, because I’ve been convicted in both, unfortunately, that was one of the first things that’s addressed right? Like, the government puts a detainer on you and say there’s an immigration detainer on you, because of your illegal status in this country. But I had so much stuff going on legally. And that at the time, the type of sentences that I was facing was so large that the whole concept of immigration seemed like minute to me compared to that.
Interviewer 16:09
Yeah.
Javier 16:11
But deep down inside, I never had a problem, I never felt no fear or anxiety about going back home. You know because I understood, early on, I understood when I first came to this country that I didn't have my documentation in order. I was advised by some of my friends that were here before, you know, you might want to try to find somebody to marry them. I said look look,I didn’t come here for all that. I came here for XYZ, which was you know this money, power, respect thing. And that was, that was because I was young and impulsive and didn’t want to wait things out. So, now this concept of deportation is different for me now. Because now I’m going on 30 years in prison and I want to go home, so now I look at home, and it is a little anxiety now. Because I want to be with my mother, and be there for her [intelligible]. I’m also going to a land that has changed in the past three decades, you know? The world has changed. But it’s not that type of anxiety that paralyzes you because I’m the type of person that I face my fears and grab the bull by the horns. I love challenges, I love trying to figure out things and things like that. So, that’s what I’m gonna do, you know, I’m just gonna hit the ground and take it one day at a time, and then I’ll just hit the ground running again. But, it is this anxiety because I think as human beings, they all know, right, there is a level of uncertainty.
Interviewer 17:41
Right. What do you know about how Panama has changed since you were last there?
Javier 17:47
As much as I can, I try to get as much as I can. I speak to my mother everyday, we set up a way where we can speak. She’s in Panama, and sometimes I have friends come over, and when I get my hands on certain information then I get it. So, things are extremely modern, especially since we got the Canal back in 2000. The government, they've been putting a lot of that money that's coming in and putting it into development. So things are pretty modern, I love what’s going on down there as far as, you know, upward mobility. And, um, I’m impressed. And I can't wait to get there and just be part of this. My main goal is to kind of make a contribution to the criminal justice reform down there. I'm already trying to move a few pieces now, as we speak, to plant some seeds out there to see if I could kind of have a few interviews as soon as I get there to speak with a few people that could potentially, you know, make some decisions to kind of sell some of the concepts that we have going on up here, down there.
Interviewer 18:59
So it sounds like in your mind you've been always been a little bit prepared for going back there someday.
Javier 19:11
Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
“I always had this plan that once I make a certain amount of money I’m going back home, and I’m going to open up some business, and I’m taking my mom, and we’re going to ride off into the sunset.”
Interviewer 19:14
When you came here did you feel like it would be permanent, or were you just kind of were taking things as they came?
Javier 19:21
I lost track of certain things when I got here, everything was moving so fast. You know, I got into this world, not by force, by choice, got into this world where everything was moving, like, from zero to 60 in like 1.2 seconds. And, it was days where, I was in the United States as a free man for like five years, maybe six and one year. But every single day of that, of those five years, it was like the equivalent of a month. That’s how fast things were. And, I kind of lost track of that-
Interviewer 20:04
When you say things were moving fast, just like, so many things would happen in the course of like 24 hours?
Javier 20:13
Yeah, yeah. I was part of this drug trafficking organization you could say—no, matter of fact I take that back. I’m part of this criminal organization, you know what I mean? And I'm 21 years old at the time, and everything is just moving fast. Fast money, cars, and the crime that you would see in movies being committed. You know, I was just part of a whole different world. The deportations or going back home, see I always had this plan that once I make a certain amount of money I’m going back home, and I’m going to open up some business, and I’m taking my mom, and we’re going to ride off into the sunset, right? Which, now, you know, in hindsight, it was a lie, you know, it was a mirage. So it was always at the back of my mind and now the more I speak to you the more I’m seeing things clear. Remembering certain things that is that, it was in the back of my mind that I am going back home at some point. But then, that point of “okay, we made enough, it’s time to go back home,” it never came. It was never enough. It was never—I never got to that place where it was enough, until the FBI, the DEA, and ATF, and everybody is looking for me, now I’m thinking about whether I want to go back home. Right? So.
[You have one minute left.]
Interviewer 21:37
I just got the one minute, so you'll have to call back in a second.
But when that happened, did you—well, I guess I'll just, I'll wait to pick that up.
Javier 21:52
So let me hang up and call back.
Interviewer 21:55.
Okay. Alright.
[This is a prepaid collect call from—Javier Card—an inmate at New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. This call is subject to recording and monitoring. To accept charges, press one…]
Interviewer 23:32
…Hi. Okay, so restarting the interview.
Javier 23:44
So you did say, so before we go any further, you did kind of anticipate that it wasn’t going to be, that it wasn’t going to be all a pretty story, right? And that all this stuff that I was doing now came in prison.
Interviewer 23:56
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Anything you want—it’s really your story. With the oral history, it’s not meant to be an interview, it’s really meant for you to tell, talk about your life the way you want to. I don’t have a particular vision for what your life is supposed to mean in the context of this project. It’s really up to you.
Javier 24:23
Alright. Cool.
“I think that is the insanity of being a criminal. Knowing that it can end up one of these two ways, and to continue going forward. Because the average person who really cares about theyself is going to look around, turn around, and like ‘what the—I’m not doing that.’”
Interviewer 24:30
Okay, so you're, you were just saying, you did have this picture in the back of your mind to go back but then that day never came where you're like, I have enough and I'm ready to go back and ride into the sunset, as you say. So you know, once you started getting some attention from the agencies you mentioned, did you think about going back then?
Javier 24:55
Oh absolutely, absolutely. But by that time the walls were closing in on me. It was hard to get decent traveling documents and stuff like that, because I’m hot now. And, so things just close in and the end was kind of inevitable. These types of stories end up in two or three ways. Either you’re going to be dead, you’re going to be in prison, and the possibilities of riding off into the sunset are like one in a trillion.
I think what’s insane about me is that even at those young ages, because I had to end up in prison I was 25, I kind of understood that. I might not have understood it the way I understand it today, but I understood the consequences. You know, you have some kids in here that came in and they were 16, 17. And when you look at these studies with how the human brain develops, you kind of understand they never really understood, or never understood the level of culpability, and all these things. For me, it was kind of different. By that time I was so seen, and I liked that, that I know what I’m going to do. And I think that is the insanity of being a criminal. Knowing that it can end up one of these two ways, and to continue going forward. Because the average person who really cares about theyself is going to look around, turn around, and like “what the—I’m not doing that”. You know what I mean? So, yeah.
Interviewer 26:30
It’s like holding both of those things, at the same time. It's like you think that there's only two outcomes—those two outcomes—but you keep going somehow…and like you know all of that to be true at the same moment...
Javier 26:49
But also, it’s also a little lie in the back of your mind saying “I’m smart”. I’ll get away with this. I’ll make two, three moves, I’m going to be a millionaire, and then disappear. How about that? That’s that less than one percent possibility of that happening, you know? In the back of your mind, so.
Interviewer 27:12
So, you know, when you, when this was going on, can you remember—do you remember how your mom, or other family, or other people who are close to you, reacted to the possibility that you would, you know, be deported or face a lot of time?
Javier 27:34
Oh they was terrified. I think they was more terrified, the people that really love me, they were more terrified, not so much for deportation, because deportation, when you look at it under the scope of what was happening, it feels minute. Almost all my friends are dead, and all of them died before I came to prison. So that means they died at early ages, and they died violently. And I think my mom's main concern, you know, all these guys being sent back home in coffins, that that could be me one day. You know, then she hears things from people. Like I said, the the Panamanian community up here, they talk to people down there. She hears things about me, when I’m on the street and all that. And, I really put my mom through hell. I think that is the essence of a criminal as well, is being selfish. Because, on one hand I profess to love her and love my kids, and I took them in, I did all types of stuff for them. My mom wanted to send something for me anyway. But my kids and all that, they had the best of everything. I changed diapers, I did everything, I fed them. I was this person, I was trying to live this duality, right? And at home I’m this father, I’m their dad, and when I walk out the door I’m this gangster.
Interviewer 29:01
You're just what? Sorry I missed that.
Javier 29:02
Once I walk out that door, I’m that gangster, you know? It’s this—yeah, it’s selfish. It’s selfish because if you really love somebody you kinda think about, or you should be thinking about how your actions will affect them. I think I wasn’t weighing, I know I didn’t weigh that the way I should have been weighing it, the way I would’ve weighed it today. It was terrible for them, it was—I can’t imagine.
Interviewer 29:38
How old are your kids?
Javier 29:42
So I have four daughters in Panama, they’re in their thirties. My oldest son, I have two sons in the US and two daughters in Panama. My oldest son is 30, he’s 30 now too actually. He’s 31 now. My younger son Joshua, he’s the same. He has—he is as old as I’ve been in prison. So I’ve been in prison 29 years from March now, going on 30 years in May. So he’s 29, he’ll be 30 in January. And he’s been in prison since he was 17. He was charged with, he was charged as an adult and he’s been in prison since 2008. So, all of them have had it rough but he has had it rough too. I think the worst.
Interviewer 30:31
Is he in New York?
Javier 30:33
Maryland. He’s in Maryland, the state of Maryland.
Interviewer 30:38
Okay, got it. So, it’s interesting because for you the deportation—I mean, has you're feeling towards deportation changed over time? Like, as the possibility gets close-
Javier 30:_
Absolutely.
Interviewer 30:38
—that it would happen, and how has it changed? And how have you thought about it differently, I guess?
Javier 31:10
Absolutely. So, deportation for me now is equivalent as well to family reunification. I know that it is inevitable for me to go, so I check that reality. When I mean “go” I mean get deported. And, I look at it as this vehicle that is going to reunite me with my family and my loved ones. I look at is as this vehicle I could use for a second chance. And I know a lot of people, you know, when you talk about immigration in the US, it has a negative connotation. Because there are hardworking people who come from other countries who come here to do the right thing, contrary to what I was doing. And really trying to pursue what—I don’t even know what the American Dream is, but whatever you pursue—come here, get a job, do well, take care of your family, that type of thing. But for me, deportation, because of my sentences, doesn’t have a negative connotation, means family reunification for me. So yeah, I see it totally different. Before I didn’t even think about it that much. Like I was saying, I was more concerned about more pressing things, or what I considered more pressing, which was these sentences that I had on my back.
Interviewer 32:29
If you're saying deportation is inevitable for you…if it wasn't—if you weren't like “I'm fairly certain that that's what's gonna happen when I get out of prison”—do you think you would think about it differently? Like if you had more options, I guess, when it came to immigration?
Javier 32:59
Would I think about it differently? I don’t think so. Because I would understand—I think I probably what I understood, that some people kind of avoid being deported, and they may want to reunite with their families. I think one of the concerns that I would have is for people who don’t have no family, who have no connection to the country of origin, and when they get there they’re scared to death because they don’t know whether they’re going to be safe and how they’re gonna make it. You know, I think I would be concerned for those people. But for the people who have family ties and who have, you know, the support system, I think that could be great for them. Especially if they have the type of situation that I’m in now.
“I think the system in this country, by way of politics you know, the American public has been somewhat indoctrinated to believe that if somebody does something real bad, we should throw away the key. Throw away the key forever.”
Interviewer 33:50
Right. So, can you tell us about something, or a moment or event, or someone—it sounds like your mom probably—but something, a moment or event or a place that you miss from Panama?
Javier 34:12
That I miss Panama?
Interviewer 34:13
That you miss from Panama. It can be an issue or anything, or a place, or a food, or whatever you miss.
Javier 34:24
It’s so many, it’s so many. I think the food plays a part in that, but I miss—there’s no time here. I miss the way we talk, the way we do things. It’s so hard to narrow that down to one thing. I have so many childhood memories there, you know? I’ve been in jail for thirty years, and when you’re in these type of predicaments, you often go through the stages of your life, and when I do this brutally honest introspection on myself, like “where did I go wrong? How did I go from this kid that wanted to be a doctor, to this guy that got in all this trouble up here, that caused so much pain and suffering?”, I think about my childhood. And I think there’s where Panama comes in, it’s inevitable that Panama is going to come in. And I just had so many sweet childhood memories, despite the little troubles I was getting into when I was a kid, as a kid I have a lot of those memories, you know? Playing sports with my friends, and school and dances, and girls, and you know.
Interviewer 35:45
Do you have one or two specific ones that you'd want to mention?
Javier 35:52
When I was real young, I think I was like I would say somewhere between eight and ten, I came up with this idea at school where I wanted to start a dancing group. And, they used to have these little talent shows where different groups of kids would mimic some of the groups, you know popular music groups up here like the Jackson Five or this or that. I had this thing for the Jackson Five, you know, I wanted to be Michael. So we started a group, and they used to put us in these talent shows, and of course I was Michael, right? [laughs]. And I remember that. I remember going to those talent shows and I remember the guys that I was in school with that we used to do it together. That’s one of the memories that I have. My mom, and all them fellas having fun with us and all of that.
Interviewer 36:58
So, you're saying you spent a lot of time being introspective while you've been in prison. I'm curious…so there's this guy we work with and he reflected, you know, “that the system never lets you go.” That's like the phrase. And kind of relatedly, the question of “how much punishment does one person need?”And so my question to you is, where does that land for you? You know, those ideas or phrases.
Javier 37:46
So, I think the system in this country, by way of politics you know, the American public has been somewhat indoctrinated to believe that if somebody does something real bad, we should throw away the key. Throw away the key forever. You know, in a sense. Or a tremendous amount of time. And on one hand, what I try not to do is to just look at things, when it just comes to prison reform or criminal justice reform, I try not to look at it just from the perspective of someone who’s in here. Because to look at things like that it does a disservice to any movement. So I’m saying that to say that I look at it from the perspective also of the people who are crime victims, people who have lost somebody to crime or who have been a victim of crime themselves. How would that person feel, you know? And I understand, I definitely understand the sentiment. But on the other hand, right, it doesn’t really do anything to deter crime. If you put people in prison for 40 or 50 years, they’ve been doing this forever. You know, from the [unintelligible] in the 80s, you know we know the history behind that with the War on Drugs, and all these things. But no matter what this country has done, how much money they have spent on criminal justice, they have not been able to deter people from committing crimes. They have not stopped violence. So there’s something that’s not functioning the way it’s supposed to be functioning.
We have other countries that we could model where they got to this place where, you know what? Somebody may have killed 22 people, which is a horrible thing, but that person serves 20 years, 15 years or something and they determine that this individual may become productive or is a productive person and they should deserve a second chance. The thing is, how does that country reach that conclusion and this country doesn’t?
And I know that culture plays a part in that. Because it’s not just black and white, like Norway does it and America doesn’t. No. It’s part of the Norwegian culture as well, that from the moment you were born you are thought to succeed, you are thought as part of the culture that you will succeed. It’s part of the Asian culture as well, you know, it’s kind of the bar is really high for kids, for education or these other things. So I understand that it’s a culture thing as well, but at what point are we going to get to this place where we realize that, “hey, these same people that we are saying throw the key away,” one day they’re going to come back into your community. And the question is, who do you want coming back into your community? Do you want somebody to come back into your community who’s been bitter, who’s angry, who hasn’t done nothing with their time, who hasn’t received the proper tools to make that transition with their life? Or do you want somebody who’s working within that community and making a contribution?
Interviewer 40:59
Yep.
“When I thought about what contributions can I make to criminal justice reform movement, it is that. I speak for people who have committed violent crimes against other human beings. And I speak to the fact, I bear witness to the fact that we can change!”
Javier 41:01
And so that leads me into the issue of violence, because that is the main issue, right? Because, who serves the longest time [unintelligible], on some drug issues in the Federal system? Most of the long sentences in this country are what’s considered people who’ve committed violent crimes. But, there’s a contradiction in this whole thing. Because people who served the longest sentence are the ones that are least likely to come back. Who are the people who serve the longest sentence? They are the ones who have violent crimes.
So, I think we slowly—I think we are slowly, gradually moving into that place where we start to look at violence a little differently, right? We still have to understand this thing that thinks that people may commit some of the most harmful acts against other human beings, there’s this chance of regaining or reconnecting with their humanity. I’m a fine example of that, I believe because that is one of the things I advocate for. When I thought about what contributions can I make to criminal justice reform movement, it is that. I speak for people who have committed violent crimes against other human beings. And I speak to the fact, I bear witness to the fact that we can change! We can go back to the “core us.” Because everyone has a” core them,” right? You know, that you are what you are and then we start making these other choices and we start adhering to these other values, and then [unintelligible], life and everything goes on with that, and we become these other people. But that core person who you really are, you are. The other side of the coin is that there are people who are not going to change. That’s the reality. But we have to look differently at the people who can change. Who do change.
Javier 43:15
I think that this country spends more time on the punishment aspect, on the punitive aspect of things, which brings no healing to crime victims or the victims or relatives of people who had lost somebody to crime. When you look at all these other countries, like Rwanda for example, this whole concept of restorative justice that we’re trying to implement here—especially in New York, this lady Danielle Sered in Brooklyn, in New York.
I believe that concept works, that system works. Because crime victims here don’t get the proper healing that they need, all they know is they come to sentence, and say “hey, how you feel?”, and then they express all their anger, their frustration, their pain, and then they go on for the next 20 years, 30 years, living with this trauma, with these feelings, of resentful...all these types of things. And then, 25 years later they call them back and say, “hey, do you want to come to the parole board?” and they still not healed. They’re still angry. Not all of them, some people do forgive and some people do say, you now, but I think that’s one of the few things that’s mentioned in this country, they’re more concerned about punishment. And prisons are needed in every society, but what are we doing? Where are we going with this? Like, where are we going with this? What are we trying to accomplish? What is the end game?
Interviewer 44:49
And, you know, on this thing of people changing, who've as you put it, cause human suffering or done really bad things to other people. What, for you personally, what was it that made you feel like you wanted to do something different?
“And for the first time, I started asking myself certain questions like, where did I go wrong?”
Javier 45:18
That’s an interesting question. So, I'll say like the first 15 years of my sentence in the federal system, matter of fact I’ve been in different systems. I’ve been in the D.C. system, I’ve been in the federal system, I’ve been in the Philadelphia system, because unfortunately I had convictions and pending cases in all these different states. And for the first 15 years, I was mostly in the Federal system and the D.C system. And when I was in those systems, even though they had very limited, especially in D.C., they had very limited rehabilitative programs. Where I was at, I really didn’t have too much chances of being in rehabilitation because in the D.C. system, they kept me locked in a cell 23 hours a day because I was kind of high profile down there. So they kind of handled me differently. When I did get into the federal system they had programs and a lot of the programs were run by some of my fellow prisoners, but they were mostly geared toward like, not so much making that transition, but towards acquiring skills, like to become assets upon your release. You had some brilliant guys out there, like that’s like the top of the line when it comes to criminals. But when I got here to this place, this is where my transition really began because they allow for us to have inmate organizations, and the main goal of an inmate organization is about change, it’s about making a connection back to the community, understanding the pain and suffering we caused them, and so on and so on. So for the first time that I was, I sat in a room with a group of men, in a maximum-security prison that spoke about issues like childhood trauma, when did we start making these bad choices, and you know, understanding the lack of education, you know how they started making these poor choices and stuff like that. And I was saying to myself as I was sitting there, and I said, what the fuck are you guys about? Never heard men in prison speak about this type of stuff. But what it did for me is that it made me want to be a part of it, and I became involved with the organization and I started doing some of the therapeutic programs, some of the workshops. But I still had this criminal mentality, I had that for a very long time, even when I was in prison. [Just] because you come to a prison, doesn’t mean that crime stops. It’s just on a different level. You still could break rules, you still could have that mentality and that behavior. So I wasn’t changing yet, but always in the back of my mind, I was saying, because I was going to school and I was dedicating myself, said you know what, when I get to Panama, I’m going to get into business, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that, I’m going to still have my hand in the cookie jar. So I still had this criminality still looming around and anyway, I started participating in these programs and stuff like that. And for the first time, I started asking myself certain questions like, where did I go wrong? How did I go from, like I mentioned earlier being this kid who wanted to be a doctor, to this notorious gangster, you know to this day, people still talk about stories about things I did on the streets, you know? And back then in those days, I was proud of that nonsense, of that madness. Where today, I just want to run in the corner somewhere and hide when I hear those type of things.
So I started asking myself these questions and slowly, gradually I started to realize the pain and suffering that I caused so many people. Not just my crime victims, but my family and how it also changed the community, and I started to look at things, and I realized that it was so many things greater than myself. I started paying homage to these things because like I mentioned earlier as well, the essence of a criminal is being selfish, you know, you put yourself first, second and third. I wanna get some money, I’m gonna sell drugs in the community, but you don’t think about how it affects the people in the community, all you care about is that money. So, as much as I used to say I hate selfish people, I realized I was one of them.
So, for me, that transition began participating in these programs, in these organizations, that were created by us, for us. Green Haven has a rich history when it comes to programs. This is the mecca of inmate organizations in the state of New York. After the Attica riots, they transferred like [unintelligible] one of the guys here, and they formed a think tank and that’s where a lot of the stuff that’s going on now in the system here in New York, this was the birth of it, this is where it started. The Family Reunion Program, the schools, the vocations, the grievance system, the inmate liaison committee, all these things were born here, the access to have religious services, all this stuff started here in that think tank. College. All these things. So that history is not as strong—not that history—that atmosphere, is not as strong as it was back then or when I first got there in early 2007 or late 2007, but it's still there. Because I know the importance of it, and the type of benefits to society, that’s why I’m so heavily involved in it. But this is when [unintelligible] I started to look at things differently. And just on the heels of that, I want to say something that I think is very important.
I was one of those guys. I was so entrenched in that lifestyle, I felt that I would never change. I felt like, you know this is how I’m going to die. I’m going to never work for nobody, I’m going to always do it my way like Frank Sinatra. I’m not going to change for nobody. And that’s it. That was my mentality. So that's why I say I’m a good example of the endless possibility of change. Because I was hardcore. I wasn't just the average kid who was doing well in school and made some bad choices, and came to prison. I meet a lot of kids like that in here, and I feel terrible for them because they wasn’t really entrenched in that.
[You have one minute left.]
Javier 52:05
They just made some bad choices. And one incident changed the whole course of their life and changed the whole course of their victim’s life… I could call you back, if you want.
Interviewer 52:18
Okay. Thanks.
“So we have different workshops throughout these nine months, we talk about resocialization, we talk about leadership, we talk about forgiveness, we talk about emotions, we talk about a bunch of things that are required, that you should be thinking about, that you should be working on while you are in prison that would be conducive to a successful reentry. ”
[This is a prepaid call from Javier Card, an inmate at New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. This call is subject to recording and monitoring. To accept charges, press one…]
Javier 54:00
…Yeah, I’m here.
Interviewer 54:01
Alright, hi… So you were saying, do you want to finish your thought?
Javier 54:09
Yeah, I think I finished, I was basically saying that I was one of those people who you could say once, considered incorrigible. When you look at my history, and when you look at, you know, so much stuff that has been written about me, about my prior lifestyle, people look at that and say Hell no, these dudes like this don’t deserve a second chance, first and foremost. Secondly, people like that don't change. So that's why I think that guys like me, men and women like me, are good examples of that. What I was saying earlier, the fact that people who commit violent crimes can change.
Interviewer 54:50
Yeah, you know, this culture you're talking about at Green Haven, do you think it can be replicated at other places? Or do you feel like it really depends on the force of certain people? Or is that? Is that what I hear you saying? Or can you talk a little bit more about that?
Javier 55:20
That’s a good question. Matter of fact, the organization that I’m a part of right now, we just duplicated the program that we have here in Shawangunk Maximum Security Prison.
So let me tell you a little bit about what we do, and then I think that could kind of segue into where you’re going into that. So what we do is, I’m the President of Project Build, that’s the name of the organization that I’m a part of, and we mainly focus on three things: resocialization, peer counseling, and reentry. The guy who was the president for like, 30 some years, his name is Luis Nunez, he just got transferred to Shawangunk [Correctional Facility], where we just started the program out over there. He has been my mentor and one of my first teachers here in the state of New York with this. He has been in prison, 40 years plus. He’s also, his criminal history is similar to mine in the sense that, extremely violent. Even in prison. But for the past 30 some years he dedicated his life to trying to help people transform their life, and he's been very good at it. I’m living proof of that.
So this is what is unique about New York. I don’t know too much about how other systems work, but New York gives us the latitude to create these organizations, as long as we are within the rules and regulations and the guidelines of said organizations. And they allow us also to bring in outside volunteers. So what we did was this. We merged with Exodus Transitional Community, which is a reentry agency in New York City that was founded by formerly incarcerated people, specifically Julio Medina. What we do is we created a nine-month cycle inside. So we have different workshops throughout these nine months, we talk about resocialization, we talk about leadership, we talk about forgiveness, we talk about emotions, we talk about a bunch of things that are required, that you should be thinking about, that you should be working on while you are in prison that would be conducive to a successful reentry.
In addition to that, we bring in outside volunteers, especially from Exodus who are formerly incarcerated, who validate what we’re saying is possible. We’re saying that you could go back out there and be successful at reentry and live a productive life. We bring in men and women who sat in those same chairs that we’re sitting in in here, who are doing it out there, and doing it in a big way, an extraordinary way when it comes to making contributions to criminal justice and things like that. So once the individuals who graduate the program are released, they enjoy the support services that Exodus offer out there. So the process continues out there.
We also started this thing where we started preparing guys for parole. And then a lot of guys started making the [parole] board, being granted parole. So that's what made it such, oh everybody wanted to be a part of it, and guys started coming to us, you know that thing, the carrot in front of the horse? But then, when they go into the program, they say, oh man, this is much more than that. Because now they have this platform in the workshops where they can talk about things that they normally don't speak about in the yards. Now you could really be yourself and talk about trauma, talk about things that fall in line, align with whatever the topic is.
So it becomes a therapeutic and learning experience. So the program started receiving a lot of recognition, people in the Governor’s office, you know, as you already know, Sophie and everybody started coming in and things like that. And that’s the question that they started asking, how can we replicate this program in other places?
And then the president got transferred, the past president, and he passed it down to me. He just started the program over there on the 23rd of this month, as a matter of fact. But it’s a process because that means that if we doing it on our own, we have to have people who are trained and capable, who are committed enough to carry that torch. And sometimes that becomes a little difficult. But if you put it in the hands of the system, sometimes the concept gets watered down. We still have to work with the system in order to make things work and they give us a lot of support, I got to give them that. But at the same time, we have to kind of hold on to it so the core concept or the core mission statement remains strong.
“It’s a lot of politics with these budgets and all this stuff that takes place, oh we doing something, yeah, we got the programs going on yeah, yeah alright. That’s from the business perspective of a person who’s running an entire department of corrections. For us, it’s more personal.”
Interviewer 1:00:08
What do you mean by water down? Like, how does it get watered down?
Javier 1:00:17
So for example, they have a state-sponsored program in every New York State facility called transitional services. That was created by the guys who came in from the Attica rising in the Seventies. Back then it was called pre-release. It was proposed to the administration in order to have a place where guys that was soon to be released, or wasn’t that soon to be released, could go in and start preparing these guys for reentry. The administration realized, hey this is a valuable tool, we should have this, we should be implementing this. So they took charge of the program. And now the program is not even a shadow of what it was back then, because everything is just one, two, three. It’s addressing things, but they’re addressing things on the surface. When you look at it from their angle, everything is money and budgets and this and all that too, and they’re trying. They’re trying. But I guess, because when we create things by us, for us, we put more into it because we have a vested interest in it. And I think that’s where the difference lies. It’s a lot of politics with these budgets and all this stuff that takes place, oh we doing something, yeah, we got the programs going on yeah, yeah alright. That’s from the business perspective of a person who's running an entire department of corrections. For us, it’s more personal.
Interviewer 1:01:50
I mean, it's their job, but it's your life.
Javier 1:01:55
Exactly. Exactly.
And there’s this thing about long-termers, that we go through this process that I read about that I agree with that’s called mature coping. Long-termers is like, we find a sense of purpose in here. These are, you know, swim or die, swim or drown, you know? We develop this sense of purpose, and a lot of us become mentors and other things. It becomes your passion. It becomes something—that’s your reason for getting up every day and coming out that cell and making yourself have a contribution to life. Because you start to develop a different level of appreciation for life, you know, sometimes when something is taken away from you, is when you really start to appreciate it. And not to make us sound like, oh my god these poor guys, because some of us we did some shit to be here. Speaking for me, I did some bad shit.
Interviewer 1:02:53
You know, the kind of conversations you're talking about having, those are conversations that not only are hard to have, but it's hard for anyone to have that level of conversation with another human being. And you're saying it's not typically the type of thing that happens in prison. But I would say that it’s not typically a type of thing that happens in life.
Javier 1:03:22
In any walk of life, right? Yeah. I concur.
Interviewer 1:03:25
And I think that's really exceptional, you know, people do not talk to each other like that. Usually, I think.
Javier 1:03:37
That’s what people like you and I are, Jane. That’s what we are. We are public intellectuals.
Interviewer 1:03:44
I don’t know if I would say that about myself [laughs], but I support you, always.
Javier 1:03:50
But you’re doing it right now, look, so let’s define what a public intellectual is. A public intellectual is someone who engages in public discussion about who are we and who should we become. Or our identities, and how identity should evolve. We’re constantly speaking about these things because the work that you're doing, and the work that I'm doing, is always talking about how people could change, how people deserve second chances, and how people transform from this person to that person. That’s what we do. There’s nothing fancy about it.
Interviewer 1:04:23
How do you maintain? Well, I want to ask you one more question, but on this thing, like how do you keep on? I guess I would say for me, it's hard to always do that. You’ve seen a lot of stuff and to keep that focus, that optimism. What's your secret?
Javier 1:04:54
I think part of it is, I think I’m genetically engineered that way in a sense. But also those inherent traits are being groomed through the process of doing this work in here. I’m the type of person, I’m an extremist in everything I do in life. Either I do it all the way, or I don't do it. So even if I’m doing good, I’m going to the extreme. If I'm doing bad, as unfortunately, I was telling you, you already know, I went to the extreme right. I’m kind of wired that way.
But also, like I said. You know when, as human beings, when we find something that we passionate about, if you that type of person, then that’s kind of like your reason to get up every day and do something. Because I think there's no greater reward, there's no greater job in the world, than to do something that you love or something that you passionate about. Kind of like a basketball player. They get paid for doing something that they love.
Interviewer 1:05:59
Yeah, yeah.
Javier 1:06:02
So that’s kind what it is.
Interviewer 1:06:05
Yeah. I want to ask about, so you know, we're talking about home and Panama and New York, but based on the number of years spent in a place you’ve spent more time, in the system than in New York or DC or Panama even, right?
Javier 1:06:29
Yeah, that’s crazy, right?
“But I think human beings are going to be human beings no matter where you place them at on this earth. It’s inevitable for us to create, formulate bonds, to see each other as family because I think that plays a role too, in here. ”
Interviewer 1:06:31
I'm curious what—you've talked a lot about the program, you know, Project Build and the types of conversations that you're having—and I'm curious what you would say about the bonds and relationships you've made in prison, and what is the meaning of that to you?
Javier 1:06:57
The bonds that I’ve created in prison—you mean, with other guys, with men throughout my travels?
Interviewer 1:07:01
Yeah, like through some of these projects you're describing.
Javier 1:07:09
So we should, you know, when you sit in a room as you mentioned earlier, how difficult it is to sit down and share things with other human beings, right? So when two human beings or a group of human beings experience that, I think forever there’s this bond—we see each other in the hallway—so a lot of guys that sit in the same room, they never spoke to each other. They’ve been in the same facility for years, and they might have been in different wings of the facility and they might have seen each other, but never met each other in person. And from that moment on after that nine-month cycle, they see each other differently. Because they share something that they haven’t shared with other human beings.
For me, it’s been so moments, you know what I mean? Because I've been doing this for years here, and so many groups I've been through, so many different cycles, and for so many different organizations. Not just the one I’m presiding over now but I’ve done a lot of work with a lot of different organizations. I think some of my bonds has been by way of mentorship, some are memorable because the moments we share, even guys who don’t participate in the program, I’ve had bonds with them because we lived on the same gallery for years. And when his mother passed away, and he had a bad time, I was there, and I was going through my thing. You know also, bad memories as well.
But I think human beings are going to be human beings no matter where you place them at on this earth. It’s inevitable for us to create, formulate bonds, to see each other as family because I think that plays a role too, in here. My team, our team that we have, that’s my family in here. It’s some guys that, that’s my brother. You know like, Dominic Dupont that’s out there. Alex Duran over there, in Galaxy Gives. Those are my brothers like those are not my friends, those are my brothers. Come up the ranks together in this thing, and we watch each other transition, and we share the good and bad, especially the bad, you know. I'm always there for the bad. Vice versa with those guys. So they’re family. You family.
Interviewer 1:09:32
[laughs] I appreciate that. Always. So that's all the…Is there anything else you want to add? You know, this is your story, your reflections. I don't have any more questions.
Interviewer 1:09:55
Nah. I covered everything, you want more. I just basically want to, I can’t thank you enough for thinking of me in the way that you do and inviting me to be a part of something like this. Anything that I could do to, not so much change people’s perspective on incarcerated people, but just to open people's minds to the possibilities of change for people like me, and people in general, and men and women in general who are in prison. I definitely want to be a part of that.
And I think that we really have to start looking at the issue of violence, I know I mentioned this earlier. But I'ma close out with that. I think we need to start looking at the issue of violence differently. We have to look at some of these other countries. Looking at some of the blueprints over there. I read this thing in the European Court of Human Rights, they abolished life without parole. Life without parole. And the cases that they used to set that precedent were cases that, in the United States, you would get the death penalty for those cases. A person would receive a death sentences for the cases that they used to set the precedent in the European Court of Human Rights. So are we saying that they’re soft on crime over there, and over here, they’re doing what they’re supposed to do? No, that’s not what I’m saying. What I'm saying is that they found a humane way to deal with these issues. Not only for the victims, but for the perpetrators of these crimes. That’s the only way we can stop the cycle. I don’t know, I think gradually get to that place, but it’s gonna take a few more years. I don't know what a few years [unintelligible]. I think that’s what I would like to say about that. And in closing, anybody that I ever harmed or caused any pain, only thing that I can ask for, is for forgiveness and that person is not obligated to give me that. And many cases I may not even deserve that. So for me, redemption or penitence should be in the form of deeds, not words. So I do it by just doing the work. I just put in work, that’s my way of jus, showing the deeds. That’s it.
So that’s my little story. Just a little grain of salt on the beach.
Interviewer 1:12:54
Yeah, maybe. Now, who's being humble? [laughter]
Javier 1:13:01
This has been [unintelligible].
Interviewer 1:13:03
Thanks for taking the morning to talk to us.